Re: PM, MAX, or USR

Mitchell B. Wagers ( (no email) )
Wed, 25 Mar 1998 18:14:52 -0800

At 07:57 PM 3/25/98 -0600, you wrote:
>>As far as the x2 testing in another post...I cannot, in any way, agree with
>>you. Our Cisco gets more upper connection speeds than our Ascend. You
>>aren't running it in a controlled environment if it is in production? I'm
>>sorry to say that connect speed is hardly a valid indication of throughput,
>>which is the only true speed of a connection; one can buy a 1.544mbps T1
>>but only use 384K, so how do they prove they have a 1.544mbps line? "But my
>>connect speeds says 1.544mbps, that is what it is!"
> I did not say production. I have been provided, from my CLEC 2 PRIs that
>are not production, or in any way part of the normal hunt sequence. I can
>setup a very good lab environment and I have indeed written evaluations for
>magazines such as PCWEEK and Internet Week. My test results on the Cisco
>were on a fairly early product, as were my results with Ascend and
>Livingston. At the time compared to USR they fell short. Again as we have
>discussed on this list it is somewhat regionalized. If the interoffice
>trunks in your area are all of the same encoding, then results may vary.
>You can ask, but the telco will generally NOT report to you how the offices
>interconnect and what encoding methods are used. I am fortunate in that
>BellSouth generally test new products in our coverage area, they are a
>competing ISP, and they consult other ISPs and provide testing with other
>ISPs. Just like the current xDSL trials in Birmingham. I selected not to
>participate in that trial, rather decided to deploy using USR equipment.

Perfectly understandable, and I also agree in part of what you said. But,
the problem still lies within the technology. What works in your area with
your telco equipment with your ISP equipment with your lines doesn't show
results that happen everywhere. It's still dependent on so many factors
that, many times, can't be controlled. The engineering side on the telco
side is...ummm...I'm not even going into that. Many telco's are like MS in
more than one way, things just change too much. I've only had two telephone
companies, out of five, that were able to actually give me schematics (that
were accurate most of all) of their offices and our lines (not here in
California, other places I have worked). The other three had no idea where
anything was or who did the engineering on the lines, etc...Somehow *grin*,
this all ties in to most of the other postings in the past couple days!

>>All that said does not mean I completely disagree with you, but someone has
>>to argue and supply the "other" side of the story. It is really ashame,
>>though, you feel that way about independent contractors. I was/could be
>>again one myself and happened to please many clients that are still
>>operating. But, to each their own; I think with all of this argumentative
>>information he will be able to make the right decision.
> Good point. I did not mean the thought was totally foolish, rather on
>that one point, I disagree. And as you stated above, argue the "other"
>>At 06:27 PM 3/24/98 -0600, you wrote:
>>>ARG!!!! Did I really here (see) someone suggest that an independant
>>>contractor try to evaluate the needs of an ISP? Gad zukes!!! Man
>>>eventhough we had many of the same thoughts, different products, I was with
>>>you until that one. His best option would be to really think of the
>>>questions, define his short term and long term needs, then contact the
>>>vendors of each, ask them for why their products would be better than the
>>>competition. Then listen to how the vendor will try and impose their own
>>>bias into the equation. The remember any ISP can be successful with any
>>>product. The key is relationship. Get to know the vendor, I would almost
>>>recommend bypassing the VAR, as they sell what gives them the most $$.
>>> With the few number of ports you may not get vendors to send you equipment
>>>on trial, but I can get almost any equipment for 60 day trial. I can then
>>>evaluate them head to head and based on what I like and dislike make a
>>>decision. I would recommend also since you are going to have limited
>>>experience to get a support contract. With the USR they will actually come
>>>onsite and install, plus provision it with the telco. (I know not much to
>>>provision, but still for the novice getting this attention for NO
>>>additional cost is hard to match!!!!)
>>>>companies deal with different products. Whether they started with them or
>>>>someone suggested them, it doesn't matter. My only suggestion is to
>>>>evaluate (exactly as Michael has stated) your needs for the network and
>>>>look to the future. If you don't feel qualified (you have questions about
>>>>products), then I would have someone PERSONALLY come in from an
>>>>contractor and advise you on what is the best solution for your individual
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